Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Has anyone else finished the book????

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< The Library ~ Has anyone else finished the book????

anirameg

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:15 am

Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 9

abcd

Last edited by anirameg on Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total

JackieJLH

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:32 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

The whole Harry leaving school thing actually makes a decent amount of sense to me. He is of age, he's as ready as he's going to get when it comes to dueling until he gets some more experience, which doesn't happen too often within the school, and Dumbledore is gone. He knows that to kill Voldemort now would be pointless - as long as there are four more Horcruxes out there, he will never truly be dead, only harder to find, since he wouldn't be in a physical body any more.

Harry needs to find the remaining Horcruxes, and he needs to do it pretty much on his own, unless he decides to let the Order in on the secret. Of course, Hermione and Ron said that they'd be there 'with him', so perhaps they are planning to drop out and go right along with...After all, the school may close anyway, if not in September, then at some point during the year. And even if it doesn't, what's the point in staying there if it only means that Voldemort has another year to get stronger?

At the moment, Harry feels that he is not just the only one who can KILL Voldemort, but also the only one who can ensure that he never returns. I think that Hermione and Ron realize that, and are prepared to help him and support him in any way, because to oppose him would mean risking Voldemort winning - it has been shown time and again that having one's friends fighting at their side seem to get them through nearly everything. The wizarding world will be destroyed, either by the war or Voldemort, should he win, if they don't act. That, in my opinion, would be far more important to them (EVEN Hermione), than taking their N.E.W.T.s.

_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

anirameg

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:51 am

Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 9

abcd

Last edited by anirameg on Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total

JackieJLH

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:20 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

At the moment, Hogwarts doesn't sound overly safe anyway...even the teachers don't say that Hogwarts is necessarily more secure than anywhere else now, only that it's no more dangerous. Especially without Dumbledore - his presence was more than likely the only thing that kept Voldemort from attacking the school during his last rise (I'm not 100% certain, as I am really tired from reading all night, but I think they said that in one of the books too). The students may be safer if they're NOT all in one place. A great deal less educated, but safer.

_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

azazello

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:02 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

azazello wrote:

Essentially, my own personal jury is out at present. Fanon Snape is utterly dead - he's a rather vulgar petty little man in canon, now. Making up silly titles for himself and whatnot.

Because of something he did as a *child*?

No, he was calling himself that in his confrontation with Harry. While there's a certain sadness in a child of 11 or making up the title "The Half-blood Prince" there's something not too nice about a man of 38 or so screaming it at an adolescent, and using it as if it meant anything.

Now, you can all get as agitaté as you wish, but I reiterate, it might be kinder for all to go back to what Jo once said about Snape, that he was "A deeply horrible person."

I shall post a fuller analysis later, but here are a few top of my head thoughts:

1. Jo's debunked ALL the glamour myths around Snape. Even his parents are not glamorous. Dad's a Muggle, called Tobias Snape, not Sylvester, not Septimius. Mum was, "Gobstones Champion of Hogwarts" and called Eileen. Not Semiramis... I'm betting Spinner's End is where he was brought up. And it's in Rochdale or Halifax (presence of disused mill, and filthy industrial heartland).

2. We all felt sorry for Snape at the end of book 5. The upending scene. Turns out he brought it on himself, making up nasty little hexes and stuff.

3. Is he ever so evil? Make your minds up to the fact that he might be. He hates Harry. I do not believe that is remotely feigned. He's well in with Voldemort, the toady...

I'm betting if there is a redemption in book 7, it will be accidental.

Fandom should just deal with the fact that fanon has been smashed to smithereens. I still like the character, I'm just not prepared to whitewash his actions on the slenderest of evidence.

Az

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Owlbait

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:45 am

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Quote:

Essentially, my own personal jury is out at present. Fanon Snape is utterly dead - he's a rather vulgar petty little man in canon, now. Making up silly titles for himself and whatnot.

He'd have been a kid when he made up the silly title.

Quote:

Is he redeemable? yes, but it is too early to tell. My own fanon foundered and sunk in chapter 2 of the new book. All MLC fics are hereby canon shafted (now that's an unexpectedly good spin off of this book).

I've had this plot bunny kicking around for a ML fic presuming he's a halfblood (since Jo had hinted) and forced to marry a pureblood. Of course, now they'd have to find him first.

My fic is of course wildly out of canon for events, starting with the Amelia Bones zombie, but I don't think I'm shafted for character. It's still going to be a wrench putting my head back in the pre-HBP-space in order to not have a huge style shift.

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NeoQBirdie

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:37 am

Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

There is a question which bugs me: I can recall reading from good sources (I think it was the Leaky Cauldron's time line) that Snape was spying for Dumbledore for at least a year before the attack on the Potters. I remember being quite sure that it was not the Potter's death that resulted in Snape's switchover.

In my mind this whole time is that even though Snape might have told Voldemort about Harry, he and Dumbledore obviously made sure that the Potters were well protected with the Fidelus Charm. It was Pettigrew that began hitting the nails in their coffins by betraying their whereabouts.

So do the older members of the Order either not remember this, were not aware of his spying until much later, hate Snape enough they don't care, were not aware Snape ratted out the Potters and now hate him because of this, or are they just eager to believe bad about him?

Seriously disturbed,
Birdie

Verity Brown

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:48 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

NeoQBirdie wrote:

I remember being quite sure that it was not the Potter's death that resulted in Snape's switchover.

I don't think it was a whole year. But we have been told explicitly (I think by Dumbledore in the trial scene in GoF) that Snape came over *before* Voldie's fall. The real question here, however, is how his claim to Bella that he had been sent by Voldie to infiltrate Hogwarts fits into the scheme. I don't think we have any reason to doubt this statement. And Voldie's basic interest in Hogwarts would have made such a plan desirable to him. The question is: was it Voldie's idea? or did an already converted Snape suggest it? And where does that event fit on the timeline?

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

NeoQBirdie

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:10 am

Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

I am definitly of the opinion that Snape did the suggesting, not Voldemort. Even so, I hope Rowling settles this in book seven, one way or the other. She will have to prove him evil or prove him good or prove him a spineless wimp (which I really do not think he is).

Another thing I was thinking about was who invited Snape into the Death Eaters in the first place? My first thought is Lucius, because they seem to be "good friends", but he is so rascist I find it hard to swallow. JKR mentions how extremely difficult it is for a half blood to become a DE, and that it only happens "very rarely". This brings me to the thought that Slughorn might have had the influence and connections to place Severus there, where he might have latched onto Lucius, who is enough older than him that they would have been around six years apart from each other at Hogwarts. And I certainly don't see a seventh year Lucius making friends with an 11/12 year old half blood slytherin.

Anyway, the Slughorn theory totally shoots my belief that Snape spied on the DE all along in the foot. There's no way Sluggo would have helped Dumbledore with that, I think. Ahh, it's so frustrating not knowing why Snape really became Dumbledore's man!

[edited for spelling]

azazello

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:16 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

He'd have been a kid when he made up the silly title.

And he's a grown man who is still using it to Harry.

I used to play make up games where I was a princess when I was nine. I grew out of them when I was twelve.

That smell in the air, like cordite, is denial.

FWIW - I like the character still, as a character. I do not like the man. We are back to the man in POA. Grudging and vengeful.

Verity Brown

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:27 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

NeoQBirdie wrote:

And I certainly don't see a seventh year Lucius making friends with an 11/12 year old half blood slytherin.

No, that doesn't seem terribly likely, does it? And Snape seems to have something of a history with Slug--he got invited to his party, for one thing.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

liquidscissors

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:51 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Quote:

And Snape seems to have something of a history with Slug--he got invited to his party, for one thing.

Snape was a student when Slughorn was the Slytherin housemaster. Harry suddenly displaying a flair for potions - no matter if you think it's cheating or not - is a nice parallel to Snape, who had exactly the same potions teacher, made exactly the same brews, and more than likely earned some of the praise that Harry received.

Evans and Snape must've had some vicious battles in NEWT potions classes to win Slughorn's affections. He favoured Lily more, obviously. Probably for the same reason he took a shine to Ginny and then Hermione - intelligent young women with a bit of pluck (and probably reasonable lookers as well). A soggy weed of a boy with a sour personality stands no chance against that.

Diana

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:56 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

The jury on Snape is still out for me as well. I read the book so fast to get to the grand finale that I need to go back and read for a bit more detail before I can properly analyze anything.

As for Snape, a few points that I was very relieved to see addressed:

Snape is not some misunderstood tragic romantic hero. He is a deeply fascinating, if deeply flawed, character. He is a horrible little man, no matter which side you try to butter your bread on. Deeply horrible. Do I think he really betrayed Dumbledore? Well, he killed him. So, at present at least, all signs point to yes, he did betray Dumbledore. See, I can follow the entire 'Snape was working for Dumbledore and killed Dumbledore on his, Dumbledore's, orders' theory...to a point. But...then it the entire theory falls spectacularly to pieces when we get to the why. Why would Dumbledore order anyone to perform the Killing Curse after he has done nothing but point out how truly horrible casting that particular curse is on the caster for the previous 600 odd pages? And why would he offer Snape a reason to 're-embrace' the Dark Arts after being so adamantly strident in his attempts to not tempt Snape for the past five books? Allowing him to teach Defence does not count. Defence is one thing, but allowing a man we know is so easily lured by the Dark Arts to cast the most horrible of all spells just seems very out of character for Dumbledore.

Snape is not some rich, haughty Mr. Darcy. Snape does not live in some Pemberly knock-off. Checkmate, and thank you. Spinner's End, indeed.

Snape is a half-blood. That sound you hear is the internet imploding over the mass deletion of half of the Harry Potter fanfiction communities canon-shafted bull shit.* See: MLC.

*Okay, so I'm quite sure that most of the dreck will, quite dreadfully, remain forever posted on the web at large. A girl can dream though...

Quote:

Very strange. And I hate that Harry thinks it's a good idea to ditch the school that he himself was babbling about being his only home. And Hermione didn't even try to dissuade him. Very uncool. (And suspicious.)

Interesting observation. Allow me one, if you will. Essentially, in my opinion, this is one of the most important points brought up in HBP. Yes, more important that Snape and the Half-Blood Prince B.S. and Dumbledore dying and all that. Remember, this is Harry Potter and... Anyway. Harry is constantly going on, as you point out, about Hogwarts being his only home. Much like Tom Riddle, if you remember. The difference, and essentially the point that Dumbledore has spent six years trying to hammer into Harry's head, is why and how both Harry and Tom Riddle viewed Hogwarts as their only home.

Harry views Hogwarts as home to the extent that Dumbledore was home. Dumbledore is what made Hogwarts home for Harry. And sure, there is Hermione, Ron, Ginny, and the rest of Harry's friends as well, but essentially it is Dumbledore. With Dumbledore gone, Hogwarts is no longer the Hogwarts that Harry viewed as his home. I would imagine it to be quite foreign to him, actually.

Tom Riddle viewed Hogwarts as home to the extent that what was contained within could aid him in his quest for power.

Notice too how Harry is able to leave Hogwarts behind where Tom Riddle was not able to. As I said above, I believe that this dynamic, between Harry and Tom Riddle, is the most important thing learned in HBP.

Oh and I should apologise for the incoherent and rambling comments posted above. Reading for six hours straight has left me a bit frazzled and cross-eyed.

Diana

Melvacaea

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:26 pm

Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 36

I am hopping on the Snape-is-dead ship. (hurt my mother, not me). Evil horrible little man... who needs to grow up!

By the way Diana, I know the feeling... except I read it in four hours...

I will not dispute the point that Snape is interesting. (Very, very, very interesting. I mean, damn...) But he has, as you said, a deeply flawed character. (I can hear the wails now). Severus, though, had a bad childhood (no one disputes this point either, yes?) so that is one of the reasons as to why he is... like... this. Remember that he witnessed his father yelling at his mother and that he was locked in a closet (or cupboard, I forget).

The parallel between Severus and Harry is mind boggling, as well as the one between Harry and Tom.

Bad childhood: check

Abuse: check

School enemies that insisted on hexing them whenever they could: check

The same sort of pastime as a young child (fending off spiders, a bit of a satirical joke here): check

Pride with what they can do right (even though Severus' is overexcessive): check

A love for the Defense Against the Dark Arts (and also, in Severus' case, the Dark Arts themselves): check

Half-bloods: check

I could keep going but it's all kind of minor from there on. And my brain hurts....

_________________
"One word removes us from the weight and pain of life -- that word is love." -Sophocles

Severus' mind is his own. We can only speculate.

Owlbait

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:27 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

[posted before I was ready on this one trying to figure out how to delete...]

Last edited by Owlbait on Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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