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anogete

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:37 am

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 4

I've searched high and low, but I don't remember nor have I found any information on Snape's mother besides her name (Eileen Prince) and that she was pushed around by his father. Do we know anything about her death? Was there anything definitive mentioned in the novels or by JKR about how or when she died?

azazello

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:30 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

All we canonically know about Snape's ma is that her name was Eileen Prince, she was Captain of the Gobstones team at Hogwarts.

She married the Muggle, Tobias Prince later and had one son that we know of.

And that is it.

She is probably the weeping woman we see in one of Snape's memories in OOTP and the shouting man in the same scene is probably Tobias. The little boy crying in the corner was probably Snape.

Please note my repeated use of the word "probably" because it's important. It's never clearly stated that this was Snape's childhood, though I'm pretty certain (as was Harry who saw it) that it was Snape who was the kid. As Rowling has never contradicted this, I'd say it's as near certain as you can get.

There are a number of ways you can read that scene. The first, and the cliched version is to assume this was standard spouse abuse and standard day-to-day fare Chez Snape.

It could have been a number of reasons:

1. Money. I've been married (well cohabiting), money is the number one row starter going.

2. My theory is that Tobias just found out his wife was a witch, and his son a budding wizard courtesy of a bit of precocious magic by his little son.

Remember, there's not a shred of canon evidence that Tobias was abusive either towards his wife or son. You can surely extrapolate from that scene that such was the case, but until we get a firm backstory in book 7, extrapolation is all it is going to be. I'd avoid it, if it were me. Abused-at-home!Snape has been done to death, and mostly not very well.

We have canon evidence that witches DO marry Muggles and not let on about their powers (Seamus Finnegan's mam kept it quiet, Tom Riddle's mother kept it a secret) and that the Muggles in question might get very annoyed when they do find out (certainly Tom Riddle Senior was annoyed).

It could be money. There's good arguments that Snape was poor - he seems to have had second hand text books (his mum's) and his grey knicks might be a sigh his family were skint. The Spinner's End house is, I suspect, belonging to his father, and it's not a particularly flashy neighbourhood.

Nothing canonical whatsoever to support whether his parents are alive or dead. Though the fact that this Muggle house is Snape's suggests he inherited it from them.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

maryh

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:02 pm

Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Wisconsin, USA

Hi,
I was wondering what canon evidence we have for Eileen Prince's blood status. Do we know she is a pureblood?

Elisabeth

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:11 pm

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 8 Location: U.S. (NJ)

maryh wrote:

Hi,
I was wondering what canon evidence we have for Eileen Prince's blood status. Do we know she is a pureblood?

I believe the short answer is "No." Not for 100 percent sure, anyway.

We know she was at Hogwarts and therefore magical. We know from the old Daily Prophet clippings unearthed by Hermione that Eileen married a Muggle.

We also know Snape made the pun on blood status with the inscription "Half-Blood Prince" on the old potions textbook. (And he uses the name to describe himself during his final tirade before fleeing at the end of HBP.) Hermione and Harry both assume this to mean that Snape *was* a half-blood himself. Which would mean that Eileen was a pureblood.

But as far as the text itself is concerned, it's isn't explicitly stated that Eileen was a pureblood by somebody who was in a real position to know this for a fact. Myself, I figure the evidence is strong that she is a pureblood, but technically that's still an inference -- until somebody unearths Snape's birth record in Book Seven, that is.

(Evidence hunting like this is so scary. Please don't tell me I missed the climatic Snape-birth-record-discovery scene in HBP... Wink

)

maryh

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:44 pm

Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Wisconsin, USA

Thanks for your response. That's what I thought.

Quote:

Hermione and Harry both assume this to mean that Snape *was* a half-blood himself. Which would mean that Eileen was a pureblood.

Actually, I don't think that follows. A half-blood is someone with a parent or grandparent who is Muggle, and at least one parent who is witch or wizard. It doesn't say the witch or wizard has to be pure-blood. My reference is the Harry Potter Lexicon:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/blood-status-names.html

So if the only direct evidence for Eileen being pure-blood is if Snape is considered half-blood, that does not follow. Even if Eileen is not pureblood, Snape would still be considered a "half-blood".

azazello

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:09 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

She's pureblood. See HBP chapter 30:

Quote:

(Hermione) "It's just that I was right about Eileen Prince once owning the book. You see ... she was Snape's mother!"

(snip)

"I was going through the rest of the old Prophets and there was a tiny announcement about Eileen Prince marrying a man called Tobias Snape, and then a later announcement saying that she'd given birth to a--"

"--murderer," spat Harry.

"Well ... yes," said Hermione. "So ... I was sort of right. Snape must have been proud of being 'half a Prince', you see? Tobias Snape was a Muggle from what it said in the Prophet."

"Yeah, that fits," said Harry. "He'd play up the pure-blood side so he could get in with Lucius Malfoy and the rest of them ... [italics mine:]He's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ..."

It's important for clue hunter gatherers to sit back and this point and observe the way IMPORTANT information is presented in the books, and this very stock method of Hermione as the detective is a vital clue that the author is speaking here. Rowling frequently uses Hermione to impart information in this way; it's one of her prime functions. Note something else, Harry says that Eileen is a pureblood, and NO ONE contradicts him. This is because it's true.

Another thing that needs to be noted is that within each canon book there's generally a central mystery. The central mystery of HBP is the actual identity of the Prince. During the unfolding of such mysteries, Harry often gets it wrong. That's his purpose, because we are meant to "be" Harry during the reading of the books. We should see it through Harry's eyes - ie not 100% informed. However, invariably, the mystery is unveiled and at that point, Harry finally understands the truth (see for instance the Moody mystery in GOF). At the point directly after the climactic events, Harry will finally understand. Often with the knowledge of one who has been taken in. Hermione may well have been there to ask questions, and set up doubt. But always at the end of each book, Harry fully understands the mystery. He is "in the know" and if he says Snape's mum was a pureblood, then we are meant to know that and agree with it as true. Because if he was wrong, there'd be further revelation. These books always have only one dangling issue, and that's the ultimate defeat of Voldemort.

And the only outstanding question about Snape is not his ancestry, but whether or not he's evil:

Quote:

"I should have shown the book to Dumbledore," said Harry. "All that time he was showing me how Voldemort was evil even when he was at school, and I had proof Snape was, too--"

"'Evil' is a strong word," said Hermione quietly.

That should not be read as JKR telling us the answer to the Snape enigma, either, just as a question carried forward to be finally answered in book 7.

Bring it on!

Elisabeth

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:19 pm

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 8 Location: U.S. (NJ)

azazello wrote:

But always at the end of each book, Harry fully understands the mystery.

One of the things I've admired most about the books is their consistency in delivering their hero's POV, limitations and all (and the richness of the storytelling, within this POV). I see your point about Harry understanding the "mini"-mystery contained within each book. Overall, though, viewing the world through Harry's eyes becomes a vital part of the suspense, since he can't fully understand The Big Picture, so we readers are stumbling through it alongside him.

Your point about considering the way in which vital evidence is conveyed in the books raises the question: is canon evidence mainly what can be described as facts encountered in the text? Or is it equally about the timing of the facts' delivery, and the identity of the messenger?

Guess life is more interesting if the answer is (B)...

Elisabeth (who *does* agree that HBP appears to polish off the question of Snape's ancestry, although <sigh> I'm still legalistic enough to use the qualifier "appears")

maryh

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:52 pm

Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Wisconsin, USA

Thanks for your analysis, azazello. It's given me quite a bit to think about.

I like your description about the mystery of each book being solved, versus the overarching questions of the series itself.

However, I would say that the mystery in HBP was not Snape's ancestry; it was the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. That was indeed solved, whether Snape's mother is pureblood or halfblood.

Another on-going theme of the books is that when Harry is talking about Snape, he always gets it wrong. I tend to believe that we won't be able to trust what Harry says about Snape until he is able to set aside his anger and hatred of the man enough to see him with some amount of objectivity. (By that, I don't mean that he has to stop hating Snape or being angry at him; just that he has to stop letting those feelings color everything he thinks of the man.)

I think your strongest argument for Eileen Prince being pureblood is that Hermione does not correct Harry when he infers that Eileen was pureblood.

What I'm having trouble seeing, though, is how Hermione could have learned that Eileen was a pureblood through reading school records (is any other student ever described in school records by blood?) and Daily Prophet marriage and birth notices.

In the US, what goes into those notices is pretty much whatever the couple involved wants to go in there. We know that the marriage announcement listed Tobias as a Muggle. The problem I see is that the kind of bride who would describe herself as a "pureblood" is not likely to be the kind of person to marry a Muggle. Or they might not send an announcement to the DP at all. In the unlikely event Merope Gaunt sent a marriage announcement to the DP, do you think she listed herself as a pureblood?

I can think of similar examples using purebloods who married muggle-borns. Do you think James' and Lily's marriage announcement in the DP, if they wrote it themselves, would list James as a pureblood? Do you think Andromeda Black Tonks would have wanted "pureblood" in the announcement of her marriage to Ted?

So if Eileen were a pureblood, I don't think it likely that is was mentioned in the DP announcement. And if not, then how would Hermione find it out?

And of course, if Eileen wasn't a pureblood, it's not very likely she'd bother to say she's a half-blood in the announcement. In fact, since in the books we're told that most witches and wizards are half-blood, I think our default assumption about anyone's bloodline should be that they are half-blood, unless they married into the Black family without getting blasted from the tapestry, or unless a member or close acquaintance of the family tells us otherwise.

Lincendiere

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:42 pm

Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 1

First of all, Hi !

I'm new here : I've read for a while, but never wrote until today, partly because I'm not a native speaker and make a lot of mistakes. I hope you'll not mind to much. I try to use HP's discussions to learn english, so I feel less guilty to discuss instead of to work... Anyway, back to the topic.

I'm not sure that I'm at the right place, if not just tell me and I'll just put my thoughts and questions elsewhere, but this statement of Azazello just hooked me :

Quote:

"Remember, there's not a shred of canon evidence that Tobias was abusive either towards his wife or son. You can surely extrapolate from that scene that such was the case, but until we get a firm backstory in book 7, extrapolation is all it is going to be. I'd avoid it, if it were me. Abused-at-home!Snape has been done to death, and mostly not very well.

It hooked me because in all the threads, in all the forum I've tried in the previous months, it was always assumed that Snape had a horrible childhood, with an abusive father. And, frankly, it bothers me, because apart the fact that it is an easy cliché to explain the nature of the character it also is too similar, in a way, with Harry's childhood. From my point of view, Harry is the abused child and if Riddle and Snape do share a lot of features and/or backstory with Harry it is not in the possible abuses they might have suffered in their childhood, but maybe more because they can be different variations on the theme of the orphan.

I don't have a theory. In fact, I don't really like theories or, at least, the general idea on what must be a good theory in the usual HP's discussions. But I do see a lot of possibilities without being able to decide which one is really more likely than the others.

One of those possibilities is that he can be an illegitimate child. Why ? Firstly because Rowling didn't really use this motif. Secondly because it can be a way to explain the "Half Blood". What if Tobias was just a useful way to hide an unwelcome pregnancy ? If it is, the use of "Half Blood" doesn't mean that Snape was ashamed of his muggle father, but means that he was unsure of who was his father, so that the name of Snape wasn't his.

VelvetMouse

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:58 pm

Joined: 09 May 2006 Posts: 69 Location: NYC

Just to point something out from this quoted passage:

Quote:

"Yeah, that fits," said Harry. "He'd play up the pure-blood side so he could get in with Lucius Malfoy and the rest of them ... [italics mine:]He's just like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ..."

That's Harry's conclusion and, unless he has more evidence than the readers are given, he's making the same (possibly valid) assumption - that the Prince side is pure-blood. But neither he, nor we, actually have any evidence of that beyond the fact that Snape's mum was a witch and there seemed to be some to-do when she married a Muggle.

And ya know, Harry's assumptions have never ever been wrong before. Wink

Diana

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:31 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

In the US, what goes into those notices is pretty much whatever the couple involved wants to go in there. We know that the marriage announcement listed Tobias as a Muggle. The problem I see is that the kind of bride who would describe herself as a "pureblood" is not likely to be the kind of person to marry a Muggle. Or they might not send an announcement to the DP at all. In the unlikely event Merope Gaunt sent a marriage announcement to the DP, do you think she listed herself as a pureblood?

I think it's important to point out that you are also making assumptions here as well -- an assumption in that those marrying were left w/the option to either announce or not announce their marriage. Considering that this is the magical world we are dealing w/here, I could just as easily make an assumption that the Daily Prophet would not need to be informed of the impending marriage. And even barring the possiblity of knowledge w/out consent, we still have the canon fact that the Daily Prophet often writes their stories (factual or otherwise) w/out consent of those being written about -- unless Eileen Prince married in secret -- and we know she did not -- it's a safe assumption that others in the magical world would have known about the engagement regardless of her telling the Prophet.

It is an assumuption to claim that the Prophet would or would not publish the individual(s) blood status -- they published Snape's father's status, after all.

Quote:

And of course, if Eileen wasn't a pureblood, it's not very likely she'd bother to say she's a half-blood in the announcement. In fact, since in the books we're told that most witches and wizards are half-blood, I think our default assumption about anyone's bloodline should be that they are half-blood, unless they married into the Black family without getting blasted from the tapestry, or unless a member or close acquaintance of the family tells us otherwise.

We've no proof that James Potter was related to the Blacks -- he was a pureblood. We've no proof that Dumbledore was related to the Blacks -- also a pureblood. The Weasleys -- purebloods as well (eg "blood traitors") and not related to the Blacks in anyway that we have been made aware.

Using the Black family tree as a basis for blood status is like using Slytherin house admittance to determine blood status. Fanon often confuses the fact that Slytherin himself approved of only purebloods (and we've only second-hand knowledge of that, by the way) w/only purebloods being admitted to Slytherin house -- we know this is not ture. Tom Riddle and Snape, both not purebloods, point to the Sorting Hat placing non-purebloods in Slytherin house. It considered Harry (another half-blood) for Slytherin for a few seconds there as well -- and I doubt it was Harry's blood status that kept him from Slytherin house.

Quote:

True; however, we have Hermione's lack of an objection here. I would assume that Hermione has not changed character overnight and stopped doing her homework -- considering how prominent blood status was to this particular mystery, I'd place all the money I have on the fact that Hermione researched the Prince line to a tee; she'd know whether or not Eileen Prince was a half-blood or pureblood if that information could be found, and I'm sure it could have been found.

Quote:

And ya know, Harry's assumptions have never ever been wrong before.

True again; however, sarcasm aside, Hermione's assumptions once she's gathered all the facts are rarely wrong and she does not correct him. And, again, I would imagine, given such an important emphasis of blood status in this book that if Harry had made an incorrect assumption, JKR would have had Hermione correct him accordingly.

_________________
Diana
Head Forum Moderator

VelvetMouse

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:40 am

Joined: 09 May 2006 Posts: 69 Location: NYC

Diana - Good points. And I agree, I do trust Hermione's research and we're all likely correct that the Prince line is in fact pureblood. I just wanted to point out that if we're looking for "hard" evidence in canon, Harry's statement doesn't necessarily qualify.

I also agree that JKR often uses Hermione as conduit for facts that she wants Harry/the reader to know. In fact, I bet there's a whole long post in there somewhere about JKR using Hermione as part of her authorial voice... but that will have to wait for another night (or weeks, until after we unpack and I can dig out all my books again). Smile

anogete

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:17 pm

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 4

So, I'm incredibly late in thanking everyone for the assistance. I was crossing my fingers and hoping like mad that the canon facts relating to Snape's mother and father are few and far between. I'm in the midst of writing a fic that will use this information. I did not remember reading anything concrete with the exception of the memory Harry received, but I there are so many small details in these books that I did not want spit in the face of canon facts. Anyway, many thanks to everyone.

FiaBerns

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:50 pm

Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 11 Location: England

VelvetMouse wrote:

Just to point something out from this quoted passage:

Quote:

Have to agree with you here, but the one thing which no one seems to have thought about is that if you look at where Snape lives and extrapolate his upbringing based upon Spinners End being his familial residence, he may have been using his mothers' passed along school books, and if that was the case it is not inconcievable that his mother named herself as the half-blood prince. If Snape truly thought of himself as this surely he would have re-invented himself into this persona, in the same way as others have within the book e.g. Tom Riddle to Lord Voldemort.
Also have to say if JKR was going for an insulting name that doubles up as cockney rhyming slang she definitely hit pay dirt with Tommy Riddle......anyone else figured that out yet.....hehe. Twisted Evil

Fia

_________________
'I follow him to serve my turn upon him'
Othello, by Shakespeare.

maryh

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:28 pm

Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Wisconsin, USA

Diana wrote:

I think it's important to point out that you are also making assumptions here as well -- an assumption in that those marrying were left w/the option to either announce or not announce their marriage.

That is absolutely true. I'm also making the assumption that wizarding marriage announcements are like modern US marriage announcements. That's one of the biggest weak points of my theory.

Diana wrote:

Considering that this is the magical world we are dealing w/here, I could just as easily make an assumption that the Daily Prophet would not need to be informed of the impending marriage. And even barring the possiblity of knowledge w/out consent, we still have the canon fact that the Daily Prophet often writes their stories (factual or otherwise) w/out consent of those being written about -- unless Eileen Prince married in secret -- and we know she did not -- it's a safe assumption that others in the magical world would have known about the engagement regardless of her telling the Prophet.

That is all possible. The only counter I have to that is that it is likely that neither Eileen Prince nor Tobias Snape were on the Prophet's radar. It's one thing for a Rita Skeeter to make stuff up about famous Harry Potter; quite another for her or anyone else to care about a working class witch from Manchester and her Muggle fiance. Still, if the Princes were an old pureblood family, it might be possible.

Diana wrote:

It is an assumuption to claim that the Prophet would or would not publish the individual(s) blood status -- they published Snape's father's status, after all.

Another weak point. However, I see identifying Tobias as Muggle as on a different level from identifying blood-status per se. There are laws about how Wizarding folk are to act around Muggles.

Diana wrote:

I think you missed the second part of my quote "or unless a member or close acquaintance of the family tells us otherwise." In all of the cases you mention above, someone in a position to know has told us about the blood status. Except that in the case of Dumbledore, I don't remember where we're ever told about his blood status at all. My main point was that in the absence of good evidence, our default assumption about any witch or wizard should be half-blood.

Diana wrote:

... we have Hermione's lack of an objection here. I would assume that Hermione has not changed character overnight and stopped doing her homework -- considering how prominent blood status was to this particular mystery, I'd place all the money I have on the fact that Hermione researched the Prince line to a tee; she'd know whether or not Eileen Prince was a half-blood or pureblood if that information could be found, and I'm sure it could have been found.

I find this to be the strongest argument that Eileen was a pureblood. I'm sure that given enough time, Hermione could have unearthed the info about Eileen's bloodline, although I'm equally sure that she would not have found such information in the Hogwarts school records. But I think you also need to take into account that it is not necessary to determine if Eileen was pureblood or not to determine whether Snape was half-blood or not. Witch mother, Muggle father makes him a half-blood, whether his mum's pureblood, half-blood, or Muggle-born. Hermione's lack of an objection is not necessary to solve the mystery, so it is not required, even if she knew Eileen was not a pureblood.

Thanks for your comments, and I'm sorry I didn't get back to you much sooner!

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